So anything you ever wondered about casinos?

[croup]

I thought id ask to see if there are any questions anybody would like answering while you have one of the "bad guys" who stands on the other side of the table kicking around. I cant reveal anything overly sensitive but ill give honest answers to those things youve always wondered about and which wont get me fired.

Im interested to see what gamblers impressions and misconceptions are and which aspects provoke the most curiosity. Fire away if you desire.

[GabeCoUk]

Let me ask you this.

I used to know this croupier, who showed me that he could hit a desired section of the roulette wheel round after round.

Now, I have played at many landbased casinos, and have noticed that as soon as I start winning, and decide to chase a section, (call it 14 neighbours and outsides) the ball drops at neighbours to Zero only. i.e. nowhere near where I'm aiming.

Not you tell me, fact or myth, can croupiers hit a desired section??

I believe fact, as have seen it done. Whether lucky fluke of 100 spins or not, impossible to tell.

[DannyC]

Its impossible, only luck even from a coupier.

There's WAY too many factors as discussed before in many topics about this... come on guys, its common sense and a bit of maths n science, not brain surgery!

[croup]

Let me ask you this.

I used to know this croupier, who showed me that he could hit a desired section of the roulette wheel round after round.

Now, I have played at many landbased casinos, and have noticed that as soon as I start winning, and decide to chase a section, (call it 14 neighbours and outsides) the ball drops at neighbours to Zero only. i.e. nowhere near where I'm aiming.

Not you tell me, fact or myth, can croupiers hit a desired section??

I believe fact, as have seen it done. Whether lucky fluke of 100 spins or not, impossible to tell.

Its a myth. It cant be done.
Maybe if you span the ball, the minimum 3 spins and had a very slow wheel rotation you could get it in an area...possibly...after ten years practice....and then the pit boss is going to come across and ask what the hell you are playing at with such a silly spin.

Next time you are playing watch the ball. It hits the "soldiers" as it drops and ricochets off, it bounces off the sections, it sometimes suddenly stops dead, sometimes it runs around the junction between the outer and inner rim for an eternity. This alone negates the possibility of putting it anywhere near a certain number. Apart from that there are different sized balls and each wheel depending on the type of rim and how polished it is will affect how far the ball goes. If anyone who is still a croupier claims it can be done, dont believe them. If they are in a flash penthouse or on their multi-million yacht with a lingerie moddeling girlfriend you might take them a little more seriously, but even then demand a demonstration.

Oh and one other thing, croupiers do like to mess with your head. Sometimes its nice to hear these fantastic tales of what we can do and sometimes the mischievour urge to play up to them comes out. At least once a night someone asks me what the next number is going to be. I often just tell them a random number with confidence. Sometimes it hits, most times it doesnt. When it hits, a myth is born. That bloke is going to think you know where the ball will land. When it doesnt, most times it will either bounce near, or look like its going to go in and then spin off at the last second. At that point you say something nonchalant like, "the wheel was .1 mph too fast..." or "too much backspin".

People want to believe you can do it, the same way they want to believe that there are aliens in area 52 or the mafia assasinated JFK. Croups know this and have a little fun messing with you.

One of my favourites is when my table and the roulette table next door spin the same numbers a few times in a row. I call the inspector across and in a quiet voice just loud enough to be overhead by the punters tell him the "computers have synched up again....". I always laugh and tell them im joking but im sure theres a few who have that seed of doubt in the back of their mind.

Its just having fun while doing a repetive job.

Any more?

[DenFos]

Hi Croup, I sometimes discuss with my mates the possibility of cheating the Casini, things like dropping a chip on the winning number a microsecond after it has been spun etc...my mates think it is possible but they never go...I go all the time and I don't think it's feasible to cheat like that. You agree? Or do you think people still get away with stuff like that these days? To my knowledge I've never seen it attempted or seen anyone get thrown out for cheating.

[croup]

Actually, cheating is a very big part of casino life. In the UK it is a lot less common than in the US. This is due to smaller casinos which are easier to monitor and the fact that every person admitted to a UK casino needs to present ID and therefore is very identifiable.

It still occurs though. You refer to what the Americans call pastposting and is generally referred to as "top-hatting" in the UK, basically adding chips onto a winning bet.

It is probably the simplest and easiest way to cheat and still goes on quite frequently. There are generally two types of people who try to cheat like this. The first are desperate types or those people like yourself who are just wondering "what if?" and they get caught nearly every time . The second are organised, skillful, professional "teams". The latter can be very tricky customers indeed and information and mugshots of these teams are distributed around all the casinos whenever they are known to be operating. They can seriously cut into profits so are tracked pretty well.

Most of the cheating occurs on the outsides, the columns and even chances. They are the areas closest to the customers and the easiest to add chips to. People try to slide new stacks of chips on (thats why most casinos have little perspex ridges at the bottom of the columns) or add chips to their bets. Of course the dealers know these are the most vulnerable areas and so these ploys are easy to spot. I can tell you exactly what was on those outsides as i called no more bets and as i pay them out i mentally check everything is the same. This catches most of the amateurs.

A step up is when people place a bet, 4 £5s say and then switch the entire stack for another containing 3x£5s on top and a pony beneath. This is harder to spot as chips can be angled to camouflage the bottom chip and dealers may be fooled into thinking they have missed it. Again though, dealer doubts often lead to a camera check. Its not like in the old days, digital technology means they can replay the action from any table within seconds of an incident which again is uncomfortable for cheaters.

People also try to top-hat winning numbers, but again, dealers scan the layouts for high value chips and one suddenly turning up out of the blue sets alarm bells ringing. It also takes a good deal of sleight of hand to add chips to a number once the "dolly" has gone on. People also try to slide stacks of chips from adjacent losing numbers onto winning ones but most of this is pretty easily spotted. Inspectors are there to spot just this sort of chip switching and provide a handy backup to the dealer. The way we are trained to work is thus:

The dealer watches the layout until the ball has stopped to prevent late betting.
As the ball drops into a number, the inspector sees which number it has landed in and watches the corresponding one on the layout.
The dealer turns to check the wheel and see which number has won while the inspector covers the chips. The dealer can then dolly the number, clear the layout and pay.

It is therefore pretty tricky to add chips but people still try. The teams on the other hand use distractions, psychology, sleight of hand and know how to exploit dealer flaws, lapses in procedure and other opportunities. They are much more formidable.

So yes it goes on, and yes it is possible, but not easy. Oh and even if you have been in a casino where someone was caught cheating you probably wouldnt have known about it unless you saw it yourself. British casinos generally dont go for the "goon squad siezing you from the pit" approach. Its all done via a quiet "chat" somewhere out of public view. Good question.

[DenFos]

Cheers Croup, certainly an eye-opener. Don't think I'll ever try to cheat, those cameras don't miss a thing!!

You say about the cheating gangs..."They can seriously cut into profits so are tracked pretty well".
Do they really make much money out of it? I'm suprised about this cos I thought the Casinos made an absolute mint. My local (Grosenvor) in Southampton, must make a fortune in the 30 or so slot-machines alone. Then there are the BJ tables, and the Roulette as well. Those Chinese (amongst others) change up £100s at a time, cover 20 numbers a spin and a losing run of 4 or 5 spins cleans them out (I think its brilliant, I always have a laugh to myself about it), so they have lost £100 in 15 minutes. And there are loads of them, all-day every day, and all through the night. What ya reckon a typical Casini clears in profit per day? Might be less than I thought...

[croup]

Well consider that the MGM grand supercasino will clear about £3million in profit on their busiest nights and that is a venture which cost billions. The UK casinos are rinkydink in comparison and a typical daily profit would be measured in the tens of thousands. My place has a typical swing of +/- £60,000-£70,000 profit/loss at the most extreme. It averages out to clearing around 20-30k per day.

Someone pastposting a £25 chip straight up on a number therefore equates to nearly a 5% loss of daily profit. You can see how a skillful team could decimate the day.

Slot machine revenues are also probably less than you would imagine. Our place has mostly table action, and the slots probably get a "drop" (how much money has been put into them) of 15k max per day. At the 3% margin they are set for that equates to about £450 per day in the long run. Not that much really considering all the money that goes through them is it?

Grosvenor southampton will probably be clearing a bit more than my example from what ive heard, but its certainly not an astronomical figure. Glad i can help to give some insights.