No Limit: the Life Long Lesson

[Johnny Hughes]

This is the title of my latest article now available on the front page of
www.thePokerForum.com

Johnny Hughes

If you go to www.pokerpages.com and key word search my name, you will find four articles on poker.

[FreeZey]

Great article. I think if had to sum up No Limit in one word it would be FEAR
Limit games cap your aggression and so the fear you can instil in other players.

No Limit Hold 'em is the finest psychological and intellectual game ever invented.

Testify brother!

In their book T.J. Cloutier and Tom McEvoy say, "No limit hold 'em is the only game where you can continually win pots without a hand."

Ain’t that the truth I had a player go all-in pre-flop 6 hands in a row. Until I picked up pocket kings and he was forced to turn over his 8To.

If you are a limit grinder, you have you another so many hours per day job. No Limit takes less time either way whether you win or lose.

I grind my tournament buy-in’s from limit cash games. One day I thought “why not switch to no-limit and save some time”, the why was quickly answered

The amount you select to bet in No Limit is based more on intuition and instinct and years of grabbing at chips than some mathematical formula.

A fact very evident when playing inexperienced players who only seem to know how to call or move all-in :\

Highly entertaining article.

[FreeZey]

I played for an hour last night and in the end called it a day with the exact bankroll I started with.

I think it comes back to the problem of no fear. Without fear there is no folding, without folding there is no strategy and without strategy there is nothing left but chance.

Here’s an example of a hand I played last night:

Hole AT
-I raise max in late position 8 people call.

Flop K46
-Again I raise max 7 people call.

Bend 2
- I raise max 7 people call.

River 6
- I raise max 5 people call.

Winner takes it with 62

[Gus Mango Fish]

I played for an hour last night and in the end called it a day with the exact bankroll I started with.

I think it comes back to the problem of no fear. Without fear there is no folding, without folding there is no strategy and without strategy there is nothing left but chance.

Here’s an example of a hand I played last night:

Hole AT
-I raise max in late position 8 people call.

Flop K46
-Again I raise max 7 people call.

Bend 2
- I raise max 7 people call.

River 6
- I raise max 5 people call.

Winner takes it with 62

I know the feeling.. I played in an online tournament the other day, holding an Ace high flush from the flop (low kicker or may have made a move pre-flop), I go all in (3000+ chips), 1 other guy calls... - board is something like:

J 8 6. Other guy turns over his hand and shows an 8 and another shite card.

Turn 8, river 8.. So, I get beaten!.. The guy called my all-in, when I had an Ace high flush and beat me with runner, runner 8's.. I almost couldn't believe it.. But, I see this thing happening so much when I play online that I have come to accept it..

On a plus note, I played in a online tournament last night and went all-in on two subsequent hands with K K... Both times I got called by the same guy, and both times he had Ace with something low (say A & 6, and A & 3).. Both times (and for the first time in a long time!) no Ace appeared on the flop, turn (or as is usually the case) on the river! He also failed to pull two 6's out, or two 3's, or make a river straight on either hand! I was more shocked to have the Cowboys stand up twice as I was to have lost with my Ace high flush in the previous example! Went from 2,000 chips and 30th / 35 or so to 8,000 chips and 8th place in the space of 2 turns... In the end I finished 6th / 127 and made £200 profit

Going back to your point about fear though, I totally agree with you that people playing online have much less fear playing terrible hands.

Playing terrible hands in a live situation will result in much ridicule. Playing that hand online will probably result almost the same amount of ridicule, but as you are safely at home the fear from the ridicule is far reduced. Nobody can touch you.

What limits were you playing at? I find that the lower the limit the more likely this is to occur. Although it does happen at higher limits it seems a lot rarer...

[FreeZey]

It’s true that you get more crazy play on-line, I think that’s also because you get more fish on-line since the intimidation of a casino keeps most people away until they’re quite confident in their game.

The problems I was experiencing recently we more with the shear number of callers. How often do you see a five person showdown in NL and PL? But in Fixed Limit games everyone seems to chase any tiny chance of winning a pot just because they see the bets as so small.
What’s their thought process?
Okay the rivers down and dirty, I’ve still only got bottom pair. First positions betting out again and four people have just called again. There’s a possible straight, a possible flush and four overcards...well I’ve been calling with this poo so far one more wont make a difference.

I’m playing very low stakes, $50 $1. My intention was to set myself a bankroll target of $200 (200*BB). Once I reach this I’d move on to the next highest limit with a target once again of 200*BB and so on until I find a game that’s not profitable. I currently average about $10 an hour but sometimes things to just seem to be crazy and I can’t figure how to alter my play to counteract them.

E.g. I have pocket aces and hit a 3rd on the flop. I’ve raised pre-flop and I raise at every opportunity I have but the majority of the table calls and from those shear number of players someone hits a straight of flush.
Maybe I should try PL.

[Gus Mango Fish]

The problems I was experiencing recently we more with the shear number of callers. How often do you see a five person showdown in NL and PL? But in Fixed Limit games everyone seems to chase any tiny chance of winning a pot just because they see the bets as so small.
What’s their thought process?
Okay the rivers down and dirty, I’ve still only got bottom pair. First positions betting out again and four people have just called again. There’s a possible straight, a possible flush and four overcards...well I’ve been calling with this poo so far one more wont make a difference.

I think it's also because in Limit poker, the pot odds are always fairly good for a larger number of drawing hands.. Though, on $0.50 / $1.00 limit games so many people will call due to the cheapness of it.

I grind away on Limit games too, in order to pay for the online tournaments I like entering..

I’m playing very low stakes, $50 $1.

IMHO I'd advise you miss this limit altogether, and the next one or two, and jump up to $2/$4.. As you've seen on the $0.50 / $1.00 games people will call with anything, so for a lot of the time you'll be against 4 to 5 others and even though you have the best hand you'll be outdrawn on the turn, or more likely, the river.

My intention was to set myself a bankroll target of $200 (200*BB).

Is the game called a "$0.50 / $1.00 limit" game or is that the size of the blinds? If the game is $0.50 / $1.00 limit then the SB on that type of game is only $0.25, and the BB $0.50. So, you may be playing at a lower limit than you realise?

[FreeZey]

I think it's also because in Limit poker, the pot odds are always fairly good for a larger number of drawing hands..

That’s very true and very noticeable after playing PL and NL where most bets are 50% to 100% of the pot so you rarely get the odds to go for draws. This might be another reason why people are more willing to call the blind with cards that are just suited or connected.
So what does that leave us as unplayable 72o?
I think the limit game highlighted my style of play very well. Get in cheap, hit something strong, bet large and hope for and idiot to call. Repeat.
Without the “bet large” part it doesn’t work.

IMHO I'd advise you miss this limit altogether, and the next one or two, and jump up to $2/$4.. As you've seen on the $0.50 / $1.00 games people will call with anything, so for a lot of the time you'll be against 4 to 5 others and even though you have the best hand you'll be outdrawn on the turn, or more likely, the river.

Moving up stakes seems like a sensible solution but it has a very obvious risk attached. I’m concerned that I may just end up sitting on a table with richer idiots

Is the game called a "$0.50 / $1.00 limit" game or is that the size of the blinds?

That’s the blinds.
On the flop the bettor can open for $0.50
On the bend the bettor can open for $1.00
On the river the bettor can open for $1.00

[Gus Mango Fish]

That’s the blinds.
On the flop the bettor can open for $0.50
On the bend the bettor can open for $1.00
On the river the bettor can open for $1.00

When I play a $0.50 / $1.00, for example, on William Hill, the small blind is $0.25, the big blind is $0.50. Then as you say: Flop opens for $0.50, Bend opens for $1.00, and River opens for $1.00...

Unless that is what you are saying already

Edit: Which of course you were.. Whoops! I mistook your mention of bb to mean "big blind", and not "big bet"... Doh!

[FreeZey]

When I play a $0.50 / $1.00, for example, on William Hill, the small blind is $0.25, the big blind is $0.50. Then as you say: Flop opens for $0.50, Bend opens for $1.00, and River opens for $1.00...

Unless that is what you are saying already

Edit: Which of course you were.. Whoops! I mistook your mention of bb to mean "big blind", and not "big bet"... Doh!

Sorry, you were perfectly correct the first time. Damn it’s past 3 o’clock and I’m still half asleep! I had to picture the preflop table in my mind and see what chips everyone was using to call with

$0.50 - $1.00 are indeed the bets and the blinds are $0.25, $0.50. See it’s so cheap even I haven’t been paying attention
I think I’ll observe a few of the $2 - $4 tables tonight and see if the play is any different.

[Gus Mango Fish]

BTW, what does Big Bet actually mean? I was guessing that it might mean the amount the bettor can open for on the turn / river in a limit game?

So, when someone says they make 10BBs an hour, in say a $1 / $2 limit game, I assumed this meant they'd make 10 x $2 = $20 an hour profit.

Or maybe BB in this case stands for Big Blinds too? In which case they'd be making $10 an hour..

$0.50 - $1.00 are indeed the bets and the blinds are $0.25, $0.50. See it’s so cheap even I haven’t been paying attention

LOL

I think I’ll observe a few of the $2 - $4 tables tonight and see if the play is any different.

My favourite place for Limit tables is William Hill - they pay you £5 an hour to play (for your first 5 hours a month), and the competition seems pretty easy..