noobies

[monkeymagic]

I've only recently started playing poker online, but feel I have a good understanding of the game.

However, I find it really annoying when trying to catch a flush or a straight and ending up with a bad hand, that certain players will berate you for it.

"good call n00b" and so on....

For example, I was holding A diamonds, 2 diamonds.. . The flop came up 6 diamonds, 10 diamonds, K clubs..

The pot was already at $20.00 with 3 people remaining, myself included.... The player before me bet $3.00, so I called, and the third player folded.

The turn came out 10 clubs, with the pot at $26.00.. The player before me bet $5.00, so I called believing that I had a 1 in 4 chance of another diamond being dealt and therefore almost definitely winning the pot..

The final card was dealt and was 7 spades... In the end I lost to K, K, 10, 10, 7 and was called "n00b" from 2 of the 6 players sat at the table..

However, I think the odds of me winning that hand versus the amount I would have won from it, made it a worthwhile bet even though I lost...

So, was I infact, playing like a 'n00b'? Or were the players calling me that misunderstanding my reasoning, and perhaps knew less about the game that I do? :roll:

[FreeZey]

You were right to call those bets after the flop and the bend, here’s proof:

Hole: Ad 2d

Flop: 6d Td Kc

At this point you’re on a nut flush draw. We'll assume this is a strong enough hand to win (a fair assumption).

There are 47 unknown/available cards that could come.
The deck (52) minus the flop (3) and your hole cards (2).

Among those 47 are 9 spades that will make your hand.
So your odds of the next card being a spade are 9 in 47, or 1 in 5.2

The pot is $23 plus your call would be £26. So you’re risking $3 to win $26.
3 to 26, or 1 to 8.6

Here’s were you're not a n00b...

Lets image there are 100 alternate realties where you make that call.

In 81 you lose because you don’t make your flush.
Cost = $3 * 81 = $243
Profit = $0

In 19 you win because you make your flush.
Cost = $3 * 19 = $57
Profit = $26 * 19 = $494

Overall result = ($494 - ($243 + $57)) = Profit $194

You had what’s known as positive expectation.

On the bend you pot odds were:
9 in 46, 1 in 5.1
5 to 36, 1 to 7.2

Once again worth a call.

If your still in doubt google for “pot odds” and “positive expectation”.

NB: I haven’t included the 3 aces which would also have made you a winner with a better two pair (so 12 winning cards instead of 9). You could also have raised on the Bend had you made your flush and increased you profit there too.

[monkeymagic]

Thanks for the hand analysis.

My thinking was, my hand made up 4 diamonds, with the turn and river to be dealt, making a roughly 1 in 4 chance of achieving this by the time the river was dealt... So, therefore as long as placing my bet meant I would win more than 4 times the stake for that round, then it would be worthwhile..

I didn't really think of the different pot odds for each round though - i.e. the different pot odds before the turn, and before the river; as I played the hand with the overall odds (ish) of winning the pot...

I have to admit to being pretty confused with the pot odds here.. If I needed a diamond on the turn (not taking into account other cards dealt) I should have a 1 in 4 chance of getting one dealt...

If I'm not dealt a diamond on the turn, I figure I have a roughly 1 in 4 chance of getting one on the river... So, I make this overall a roughly 1 in 2 chance of getting a diamond on the river or turn... However, probability not being my forte, is this wrong?

I think I'm going to take your advice and look for pot odds on Google!

[FreeZey]

“My thinking was, my hand made up 4 diamonds, with the turn and river to be dealt, making a roughly 1 in 4 chance of achieving this by the time the river was dealt... So, therefore as long as placing my bet meant I would win more than 4 times the stake for that round, then it would be worthwhile..”

Yes this is the theory of pot odds. The simplest way to illustrate it is betting on coin toss.
A coin gives you 1 in 2 changes off winning.
So if someone says “I’ll put down £2, you put down £1. Heads I take it all, tails you take it all” you would take the bet. Since you’re getting 3 to 1 on a 1 in 2. As long as you have a big enough bankroll to support any initial loses you will profit in the long term.

In fact if Bill Gates said “I’ll put down £1.01, you put down £1” you’d take it and given enough time bankrupt him. These fractional, seemingly worthless edges are what make casinos their millions in profit.

“I didn't really think of the different pot odds for each round though - i.e. the different pot odds before the turn, and before the river; as I played the hand with the overall odds (ish) of winning the pot...”

I play no limit so the overall odds are impossible to calculate. E.g. on one hand the final pot could be £50 or just as easily could be £5000.

“If I'm not dealt a diamond on the turn, I figure I have a roughly 1 in 4 chance of getting one on the river... So, I make this overall a roughly 1 in 2 chance of getting a diamond on the river or turn... However, probability not being my forte, is this wrong?”

Not so much wrong as dangerous. Personally I’m conservative with odds. I put a flush draw as 1 in 6 rather than 1 in 4. To be exact it’s about 1 in 5.2.
Halving the odds because there are 2 cards to come only works if you know the final pot value to calculate the pot odds from, which is very difficult even in fixed limit games.

[Extier]

Depends on the game also, if you're playing NoLimit Holdem and there is no pair on the board... the nut flush draw is much more lucrative, as you can re-raise or call an All-in with confidence. So in this case... the implied pot-odds are very attractive.

In my opinion, anyone who berates other players for bad play are not only rude, but stupid. The only way you make money in poker is from your opponents' bad play or mistakes... so why would any sane player want their opponents to wisen up to the fact that poker is not really a game of chance? :roll:

[FreeZey]

True, although working out implied odds can difficult since you need to know how your opponents will act. You can justify drawing to most power hands if you believe someone will call your all-in when you hit it. But if they fold you pick up the pot after making a negative expectation play, which will catch up with you.

Your right about the abuse too. Although this could be taken two ways:
-They’re just being d**ks who don’t understand what you just said.
or
-They understand that he was getting good enough odds to draw and wanted to discourage him from this sensible kind of play.

TBH my moneys on the first one