Slow play/Getting Value

[Oinkment]

I just played two massive hands in a William Hill tourney, Both big Blind specials with no big pots sadly...

Hand 1. - Blinds at 50/100 - 139 players left - stack of 3615
Pair of Aces - 6 callers - I raise it to 400 - Everyne folds

What did I do wrong???

Hand 2. Blinds at 75/150 - 98 players left - Stack of 4580
I get J/5 off suite - no raise 3 players in - both of my opponents have stacks over 10K
Flop is JJT - I raise 150 - both players call
4th is J - I got the nuts I check - Player 2 raises 250 - I wait 10 secs then call.
5th card is 6 - I am first so I raise it 500 - both players fold.

- I sigh - what happenned there - I keep having this problem I play pretty tight online I only call about 2 hands every 20-25 hands and when I do catch cards I find it hard to get as much as possible in the pot- Am i playing too tight and agressve so I am not getting enough value for my real hands?

[SlaineMcRoth]

I'd say your raise to 400 wasn't overdoing it although I might have just raised a 100 to get all 6 in. That way I'm practically garanteed a caller on the flop bet.
As for the JJJJ hand, well when you've got someone betting into you already anyway. I would, as you said, wait a bit and then call, but again check and NOT bet on the river hoping he would bet at you again. I'd do this because on a flop and turn like that, making a bet on the river will most likely get your opponent to fold (as he did) so you won't get anything more out of him that way. If you check again he might bet and then you raise (getting at least his initial bet, if not a call or reraise after) and if he checks after you as well you win the same pot as you would have done, had you bet.

Someone who calls a bet on the river is very likely to bet if you check on the river is my thinking. But someone who'd fold on a bet on the river might still make a stab at the pot on the river if you check.

[Oinkment]

Thanks man

I think sometimes I bet a little to impulsivley online and it makes me to easy to read - Since your post I have been slowing it down a little and have been getting a bit more value.
- However I have had my aces cracked 3 out of 5 times due to slow play.
Ce'st la vie as the French would say!

Anyone got a watertight strategy for the Aces he asked cheekily.....

[SlaineMcRoth]

I wouldn't say water tight, but I do have a strategy which seems to work for me

I hardly ever slowplay Aces. I bet them hard pre-flop and post flop regardless of what flopped. When I then still get takers after the flop bet I might forgo a bet on 4th street depending on what flopped of course. And then maybe a river bet, call or fold depending again on what the board shows.

When I do slow play them I wait for somebody else to bet. Pre-flop I'd re-raise the bet hard, post-flop it would depend on what the board shows but usually a hard raise is asked for.

I'd rather win a little with my aces than loose a lot. Because that is the danger of aces in my opinion.

[Oinkment]

Black aces play better than red aces and mixed colour aces get busted 50% of the time....

[SlaineMcRoth]

I find that two aces of the same suit usually either wins really big or gets you beaten really badly

[7-2offsuit]

"Hand 1. - Blinds at 50/100 - 139 players left - stack of 3615
Pair of Aces - 6 callers - I raise it to 400 - Everyone folds

What did I do wrong???"

I'm actually going to disagree with Vincent on this one. I reckon you bet too little.

IMO if you're raising from the BB you're either on a steal or you're representing a BIG hand. If you were stealing here your bet was too small, so it's logical to conclude that you have a big PP and anyone limping with a middle PP should be able to recognise that they're at best a 4.5:1 dog and when they're only getting around 2.7:1 on their money to call this is a fairly straightforward fold. I'll qualify this.

You say there's six limpers already in, so there's already 700 in the pot by my reckoning, including your BB, the SB and the Button. A 400 bet is giving anyone with half a hand close to 3:1 on their money here, a pretty easy call even if you have half a hand, but as Lloyd Grossman was fond of saying, let's consider the evidence. If your opponents have been paying attention they'll have you pegged as an aggressive player who doesn't play too many hands, you have the chance of seeing a free flop here yet you bet. You'll be first to act on the next round so bad position, a huge disadvantage, yet despite this you clearly don't mind action because you're giving them good odds to call with suited connectors, a PP, or even marginal holdings like KQ and suchlike - in their position I would have to be asking myself why? The logical conclusion - you have a big hand, I'm more likely to be at least a 4.5:1 dog, so I don't have the odds to call - my marginal hand folds. Your bet of just 4xBB screams "I have a monster!" - it might sound odd but by betting heavier here I would say you actually increase your chances of action, because then anyone with a smaller PP might just put you on a steal with Ace-paint and be tempted to see a flop. In this situation again I'd suggest throwing in a pot-sized bet, or even 10xBB, and seeing if anyone rises to the bait.

Having said all that maybe I'm giving your opponents too much credit for being astute. Possibly this was just your regular online table full of weak players who will try to limp with any two cards in the hope that they hit that miracle 7-7-2 flop and they just didn't have anything that would call a 4xBB bet, regardless of the position of the bettor.

"I'd say your raise to 400 wasn't overdoing it although I might have just raised a 100 to get all 6 in. That way I'm practically guaranteed a caller on the flop bet."

You might as well just check if that's your strategy. I think a 100 bet here accomplishes nothing other than being a pot-sweetener, and the likelihood is that you're sweetening the pot for one of the other six. Online if you make a minimum raise no-one is folding here and you're asking to get your ass spanked. Aces don't play well in a six-way pot and I reckon most of the time when the flop hits you're up the Brown Log Creek with just your bleeding stump as an oar. Unless you really fancy your chances at hitting another Ace, in which case don't mind me while I tap the glass.

"Hand 2. Blinds at 75/150 - 98 players left - Stack of 4580
I get J/5 off suite - no raise 3 players in - both of my opponents have stacks over 10K
Flop is JJT - I raise 150 - both players call
4th is J - I got the nuts I check - Player 2 raises 250 - I wait 10 secs then call.
5th card is 6 - I am first so I raise it 500 - both players fold."

The way this hand played out the River is not going to change anything, so I would have played it differently, but like Vincent said, the way this went down you have to check the River and give your opponent the opportunity to lead out again. I would see your flop bet as a probe. Both players say they have something, so a check from you on the Turn is logical. Player 2 represents a (probably small) PP, and you call, so I would actually expect this to go check-check at the River. It might have been a better play to check-raise the Turn and see how good Player 2 thought his hand was, because if he DOES have a small PP he can't improve on the next card and flat-calling his 250 bet has to worry him so I just don't see him betting the River - I would put him to the test here and see if we can get any money from him before the River card hits.

"Anyone got a watertight strategy for Aces?"

Heh. There's no such thing. Oh wait, yes there is - fold them from any position. You'll never lose!

I don't like slowplaying them either. Pre-flop I try to mix up my opening bets (anywhere between 3-6BB) and on the flop make a continuation bet regardless of what hits (handy tip - try not to punch the air and shout "YES!" when another Ace hits the flop). If I get callers I might check-raise 4th street, unless the board is painted up, but of course it's very situational. Give me the Beer Hand every time!

[murphyz]

One time I had pocket aces recently and there was only one caller to my initial raise, of which the flop was useless to both of us. He bet low, so I just called, thinking a check raise would scare him off - he was first to act.

By the time it came to the river there was very little in the pot and he had about 5 times the stack I did, he checked. Before making a bet, I waited a little while and then made a comment stating "You have no hand, do you?" and pushed 1000 chips in - so he obviously thought I was trying to steal the small pot. He raised all in to scare me off, I called straight away and doubled up. He ended up having a King high card. A few previous times, with various different hands, it has taken a comment like that to provoke someone into acting and, when it works, it's a good way to get money into the pot. Often the pride of people at the table seems to lead to them betting on nothing.

So, if in a dead pot with a hand you are confident will win, try and annoy them slightly into betting into you or going over the top of your bet.

murphyz

[7-2offsuit]

Limp re-raise

The other (again, rather obvious) move with Aces is the limp-reraise, where you limp from EP in the hope that an aggressive player behind you will raise it, so you can reraise them. Some players will also do this with KK, or even QQ at a stretch. Simple but effective, but you have to be fairly confident someone in LP will decide to bump it up so it's really only a watertight strategy if you really know your players or are at a point in the tourney where players are more or less guaranteed to be making stabs at picking off the limpers to try and accumulate chips.

"A second re-raise screams Aces"

You may have heard something like this before and it comes from the strategy known as 'second hand low' which Cloutier refers to in one of his Championship books. This is where perhaps you are in MP and you're hoping that a strong player in front of you is limping in with a big hand (say, KK). You limp behind him, hoping (as the EP limper is) that the aggressive player in LP will decide to bump it up. EP limper then re-raises and you come back right over the top of him. I've yet to succesfully pull this particular move off in live or online play, but in theory it sounds like a great strategy. As with the above, hardly watertight and very situational, but one to commit to the old 'play book'

[murphyz]

Be careful when playing online not to think about the strategy too much. I was just headsup from a 20 people sit & go and was dealt AA, I was on about 23k, he was on 7k and the BB. I wanted to limp in with the Aces so that he wasn't scared off and may push all-in, so I waited a few seconds as if deciding whether or not to call. The software decided I had taken too long and mucked my pocket rockets

That's the only time I've ever laid down the aces.

murphyz